| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| edrees |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 15:18:31
Disappointed from description of V16 new features.
The "Intelligent" (??) Gerber Importer hasn't been updated for many years now and has several weaknesses that should have been attended to by now.
No mention of the BOM collating facility improvement we've ALL been shouting for. Still trial and error then?
Good to hear that they've attended to some bugs inherent in V15 though.
Is it worth upgrading to V16 apart from keeping them in business? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Scazon |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 16:19:39
Finally got round to installing V16 on computer... well I know you've not supported W2000 for a few years, but finally it won't install. I'll stick to V15 until I get round to updating the OS. There's far too much on Old Faithful for me to want to change computers... |
| hodali |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 21:48:10
Thanks remi. I decided to buy Allegro. It is better than all mentioned packages. We will keep Easy-PC for our apprentices. Easy-PC is easy to use, but is unsuitable for professional work. |
| remi |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 10:29:15
if you want a CAD software that is good with simulator go with Proteus or Altium. Those packages are way better than EasyPC in every aspect and they include a stable simulator and massive libraries of "simulable" components |
| Iain Wilkie |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:43:43
[quote]Originally posted by hodali
By the way how do you export your schematic to LTspice and import back to Easy-PC? Or do you redraw the schematic ? There is more room for errors, Iain Wilkie and edrees !!!
Well I have already said ...... I do not use simulators !!!
Iain |
| hodali |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 16:09:24
I use LTspice for measuring pulses and conducted interference emission (EMC) and it is very good apart from it is slow. My computer has 16 cores, but LTspice use only one core.
I also use Tina TI which is much faster, because it uses most cores (free og charge).
Easy-PC doesn't have spice models for the sold components (Connector Library 3. Microcontroller Library) .
By the way how do you export your schematic to LTspice and import back to Easy-PC? Or do you redraw the schematic ? There is more room for errors, Iain Wilkie and edrees !!!
quote:
Originally posted by edrees
Hodali,
If you require an excellent Spice simulator for free, try LT spice from Linear Technology.
I don't buy a combined microwave, washing machine, dryer, Hoover, TV & video. I buy separate products which inevitably don't have inherent compromises,as you mention in one of your earlier posts. EasyPC as a schematic & pcb layout package is hard to beat, ..so is LT Spice.
Daniel Hodali |
| Iain Wilkie |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 13:26:48
quote:
Originally posted by edrees
Hodali,
If you require an excellent Spice simulator for free, try LT spice from Linear Technology.
I don't buy a combined microwave, washing machine, dryer, Hoover, TV & video. I buy separate products which inevitably don't have inherent compromises,as you mention in one of your earlier posts. EasyPC as a schematic & pcb layout package is hard to beat, ..so is LT Spice.
Ed .... I wish I could think up answers like that  |
| edrees |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 09:13:38
Hodali,
If you require an excellent Spice simulator for free, try LT spice from Linear Technology.
I don't buy a combined microwave, washing machine, dryer, Hoover, TV & video. I buy separate products which inevitably don't have inherent compromises,as you mention in one of your earlier posts. EasyPC as a schematic & pcb layout package is hard to beat, ..so is LT Spice. |
| Iain Wilkie |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 08:26:59
quote:
Originally posted by hodali
At the moment Easy-PC comes without a VHDL simulator, microcontroller simulator and spice simulator.
And thats because its a PCB layout package .... nothing else.
We never use simulation so it works fine for us. Simulation does not need to be an integrated part of a layout package.
Iain
|
| hodali |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 07:56:31
When you make a complex design you need to simulate the circuit and the software. Mix-signal design includes FPGA, analog and digital components. At the moment Easy-PC comes without a VHDL simulator, microcontroller simulator and spice simulator. What is about Easy-spice ? Is there any Easy-Spice user here ? Can anybody share experience ? |
| Iain Wilkie |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 19:33:01
Johnt ... I agree with your library comments, as you probably know its structure has always been my bug-bear, however you are also correct about third party integration with this. I don't know why some if the third party people like Ultra Librarian have heard of Eagle and Designspark, but have never heard of EasyPC.
Like yourself this does make me feel un-easy for the future. My only relief (rightly or wrongly) is that if EasyPC disappears hopefully Pulsonix will still be around and I could jump onto that (at a cost of course).
Direct Manufacturing support is not an issue I don't think, in fact its a bad thing that kinda leads to using one specified manufacturer. We never do that, all designs are submitted for best quotes and turnaround etc. Emailing your files for quotation/manufacture is no big deal.
I have no interest in simulation, so as far as I am concerned apart from high speed tools EasyPC does all it really needs to do and does it well. If the library structure could be refined then I would be a happy man. Of course you can import eagle libraries but its a bit clunky so I suppose refinements there would also help a bit.
My annoyance with Pulsonix is if I go that route I can still import design files and libraries from EasyPC and carry on business, however these new pulsonix files cannot be ported back to EasyPC ... a real nuisence as a lot of my customers also use EasyPC and thats how they want their files. Also Pulsonix being the big expensive daddy, why the hell will it not import Designspark ???? ...... all very badly thought out I think.
Iain
|
| johnt |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 12:14:30
Iain - sure you are right no doubt. I'm just pretty convinced easyPC is now a dead duck as far as further real development is concerned and I don't trust the way that is being handled.
I'd be pleased to be proved wrong.
Also I look around and see other things - like support for products
like Eagle from other third parties - for example yesterday
I downloaded component layout data from Microchip. This
was available for eagle and a whole slew of other products - but not for easyPC. Components libraries as you probably know better than me are a key resource. Manufacturers support of that type makes a massive difference and time saving.
westDev must know this - and their solution is to ignore it.
Similarly with manufacturing support - eagle now has active
support from eurocircuits. By active I mean active. Now I havn't used eurocircuits so I dont know if they are good bad or indifferent but I have met them at trade shows and they seem pretty much the up and coming manufacturer to me. Their entire approach is superbly professional.
Where is westDevs response to this sort of third part activity?
I dont seen any indication they even care.
These are the things today that differentiate box shifters from corporate partners - which is what they should be IMHO.
The product is good but thats not enough anymore. Ongoing activity is vital.
I think we've talked about routers before so I'll just say the reason eagle won some points in my book is their free version
seems at least as capable as the one I paid money for to use with
easyPC- if not better in some respects.
Incidently - eagle got 1 point for 3D graphics simply because
a hobbyist somewhere has made it work with POVray
(I used V1.0 of POVray so was amused by that)
More than I planned to say but I think the point I wanted to make should be clear anyway.
|
| n/a |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 11:06:52
hodali
I'm aware of that, my point was that since the function is there, it should work and people shouldn't have to involve another package (which they may not have) to convert it.
High speed design is an extremely complex thing to implement correctly and reliably, importing bmps is not. I don't want to harp on about this, it was simply another example of user requests being ignored. I wasn't asking them to add a whole new function, I was just asking them to make one that's already there work. |
| hodali |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 10:40:34
HRPeteG , you can create your logo and save it as a DXF file. Easy-PC is able to import DXF files. If you don't have a mechanical cad system you can use a converter. So it is not necessary to import BMP files.
Number one should be focused on more advanced features like high speed PCB design, full backwards ECO where the PCB is considered the 'master' and the schematic is updated to match and so on...
quote:
Originally posted by HRPeteG
Well I have a V16 disk in my drawer, but after having read this thread I can't decide now whether to send it back for a refund or use it as an expensive coffee mat.
All I asked for in a previous thread was for the BMP importing tool to be made to work in some kind of sensible fashion so I could put our company logo on the silk screen, but it's probably not even been looked at and I'm certainly not going to risk a new installation just to see.
|
| n/a |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 10:31:03
Well I have a V16 disk in my drawer, but after having read this thread I can't decide now whether to send it back for a refund or use it as an expensive coffee mat.
All I asked for in a previous thread was for the BMP importing tool to be made to work in some kind of sensible fashion so I could put our company logo on the silk screen, but it's probably not even been looked at and I'm certainly not going to risk a new installation just to see.
|
| Iain Wilkie |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 15:56:36
I too chose EasyPC after reviewing other packages many years ago. I also have to say that in the light of the recent negativity of the product, I still think that it is absolutely terrific. The main bone of contention from me has always been the library structure. However because the product does what I want from a professional point of view, I am prepared to live with it. In EasyPC's defense, I think everybody complains about the things they don't like and forget about all the features that are very useful and work very well. Sometimes you can find features that you have not used before to find them excellent. I have just used the net match feature on a 12 layer board, and discovered that this is a fantastic and powerful feature.
JohnT you give the router a low score, but the prorouter is excellent...... but at the risk of starting the autoroute debate again, I don't use it even though I bought it, a I have discovered there is no better professional way to lay out a pcb but manually.
EasyPC is a professional quality product, I have done literally many hundreds of boards over 10 years or so, and have never regretted my purchase. The feature list is now saturated and thats the problem when they upgrade, the library structure could be a lot better and I would like to see features to ease high speed layouts.
Also the fact you have telephone support, which may I say has been excellent from my own experiances, and you get all this for a 50 Quit upgrade for a year is exceptional.
Every product will have its critics but at the end of the day its a personal opinion and nobody is being forced to use a tool if they don't like it. There are other packages so the choice is there.
Iain
|
| johnt |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 15:22:39
Yes Iain - I'll try and make a few comments as I go if I get time.
I'm starting a new product that will take me until at least
XMAS to do - I've had a look at the free release of Eagle and
think it should be achievable on that or maybe with a small add on so I'll give it a go.
Depending on how things work out I'll then look at Altium.
This is all very dissapointing because I do like easyPC and did
choose it after looking around initially.
Toni - yes libraries are the big issue. Its for that reason
I'm looking outside of anything westDev do. This is a product that requires long term trust and support.
Initial thoughts without full explanations:
EasyPC - Ease of (interface) use 9/10
Libraries 2/10
Router 5/10
Commercial usability 4/10
3D features 4/10
Eagle - Ease of use 7/10
Libraries 8/10
Router 8/10
Commercial usability 9/10
3D features 1/10
This ignores most features but picks up the core idea I think.
You may want to add things like plotting, BOM features, script language etc but I dont know enough about Eagle yet to say too much more. Most essential electrical and simulation features will probably be similar with very minor variations in all I expect.
(both need to copper pour, both need to back annotate etc. )
(Negative points to Eagle for a back annotation trap by the way)
Just one comment on Eagle ease of use: Everyone complains about the old fashion interface - I give marks for that because
1: I'm pretty old myself and have used the style before
2: It really isnt that big a deal - just a different way to click
EasyPC feels nicer though in that respect - you cant get away from that.
|
| hodali |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 15:46:41
I tested TINA Design Suite 9.3. LTspice is better than TINA Design Suite 9.3. However TINA Design Suite 9.3 supports multi-core processors and is very fast. It is the fastest spice simulation tool on the market. The PCB editor is less powerful than EasyPC. But Easy-PC doesn't have an integrated spice simulator. |
| hodali |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 16:39:18
TINA Design Suite 9.3 looks interesting. It is a powerful yet affordable circuit simulation and PCB design software package for analyzing, designing, and real time testing of analog, digital, VHDL, MCU, and mixed electronic circuits and their PCB layouts.
You can also analyze SMPS, RF, communication, and optoelectronic circuits; generate and debug MCU code using the integrated flowchart tool; and test microcontroller applications in a mixed circuit environment. A unique feature of TINA is that you can bring your circuit to life with the optional USB controlled TINALab II and LogiXplorer hardware, which turns your computer into a powerful, multifunction T&M instrument. Electrical engineers will find TINA an easy to use, high performance tool, while educators will welcome its unique features for the training environment.
There are some videos on the internet:
http://youtu.be/GQF5cLxdBpI
TINA 9.3 - Design Suite Industrial version costs only 1200 Euro. You can download a demo version on http://www.tina.com |
| toni9999 |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 16:24:09
I would also be interested my only concern is creating all my companies library items again.
Lots of room for error in that process.
T |
| Iain Wilkie |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 15:44:44
Johnt,
I think we would all be interested in what your findings and conclusions are after
you trial Eagle and Altium in comparison to Easypc.
Iain |
| johnt |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 13:35:16
I made my comments in private but
I am now trialing Eagle and considering Altium.
I see the problem as the company not the product
so I wont even consider designspark.
|
| Hanspeter |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 12:47:12
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Johnson
This message is speaking personally, not as a representative of Westdev.
I think I have to take some responsibility for the absence of G-code as a feature. There have been a few requests for this during the year, but I must stress that it has only been a few, and other issues have been more prominent. The requests were logged in the usual way, but when I was asked to comment on a list of possible new features, I didn't spot the absence of a G-code output, and to be honest, given the low level of requests, probably wouldn't have put it forward anyway. Equally, I don't recall a single request for STEP code until after V16 had been released.
This does highlight the importance of asking for features you want to see. It doesn't guarantee the inclusion, but if a lot of users are asking, it really does significantly increase the likelihood of a feature being implemented. Commenting afterwards about missing features does make the development team aware of them, but by then it's too late, and introduces a year's delay.
Dear Mr. Johnson,
I personally LOVE you for haven the B@*?s no, I mean squares
to respond on sensitive post such as 'Version WISH LIST'.
As I posted somewhere on a topic, Do please please for goodness
and sanity sake, WestDev must draw a topic specifically for
EasyPC users WISH LIST so we are on same future development
road map, as part of 45,000 registered users worldwide we are
stake holders in EasyPC! and DEMAND a say in it's upgrades.
This "exciting new features" that your marketing team puts out
are just too Colourful and pointless.
Look let's face it, 'You' at WestDev wants us 'Users' to roll along
with 'Your' new version release meant for 'Us' and some Dissatisfied
or New CAD hopefuls elsewhere, don't you think the tailor ought
to pay attention to the wearer?
See, I don't understand all the big CAD jargon, technical terms
used on this fora, all I want is a functional, Low-cost, WishList Topic
and above all a working EasyPC, so I can meet my contractual
obligation towards my clients.
Functionality in an arm-chair is what we want, all in pursuant to humans gradually losing it's ability to walk.
Kind regards,
Hanspeter Baer.
|
| wprov |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 12:15:03
Hi all,
Well I have seen "Easy-Pc" grow from dos to wineasypc upwards !. Easy-Pc was the main application along with digital & analogue spice simulators as well as Layan. All to go to waste as time went on so did the investment !.
Yes there is coperate version but paying for a "upgrade" still implies some sort of end user involvment with the developing application !. Yes there will be features that come close to Pulsonix but that will happen. Westdev will "pinch" ideas to "add" value. But still no excuse not to improve Easy-Pc !.
I have been trying to get a feature incoperated for so long which although in a more special area would have benifit to all (depending upon point of prospective) which would be considered basics i.e. all cad apps should be able to do !.
Thus trying to find a way to overcome the resistance of Westdev for a useful feature rather than what has been introduced over time !.
If a voting method will get it done then all the better. If not then at least why not say rather than waiting till a "broken" release to find again no feature added.
|
| shadders |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 11:47:00
quote:
Originally posted by wprov
Hi Peter,
What you are saying is that if one end user wish a new feature then will be ignored because of only one request ?.
If so is there any method of a voting system where each end user can vote yes/no for that feature thus raise the request to multi user and just maybe Westdev will actually add the request (or remove previous features !).
A topic with icon field "Yes" [Count_Yes]/"No"[Count_No] with user ID linked to ensure 1 vote with edit if change mind !. For at the moment any list is use less as would be seen as one request from one user !.
Walter
I agree with this post - a system where proposed enhancements can be seen as a list, and where we can vote if they are required - perhaps a scale as opposed to yes/no answer.
The single web page will be easier for all to examine with all enhancements stated - as opposed to many different threads.
With a single vote per person programing - should stop the results being skewed.
Regards,
Richard. |
| hodali |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 10:47:36
Westdev has three products on the market, Pulsonix, DesignSpark and Easy-PC. Pulsonix is the high-end product for professional users. Easy-PC and DesignSpark PCB are most likely for hobbyists.
DesignSpark PCB is the same product as Easy-PC with special focus on RS products. It is sponsored by RS-Component and it is free of charge. Number One Systems claims that DesignSpark PCB is a stript down version of EASY-PC, but it is not entirely true as DesignSpark PCB comes with IDF export and all main features.
Number one Systems will never use advanced technology in Easy-PC. They will not go into hard competition against Pulsonix. So the programming team doesn't take the wish list seriously.
Am I right Mr. Peter Johnson ?
P.S. Number One Systems can provide more features as cost options. |
| wprov |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 10:20:07
Hi Peter,
What you are saying is that if one end user wish a new feature then will be ignored because of only one request ?.
If so is there any method of a voting system where each end user can vote yes/no for that feature thus raise the request to multi user and just maybe Westdev will actually add the request (or remove previous features !).
A topic with icon field "Yes" [Count_Yes]/"No"[Count_No] with user ID linked to ensure 1 vote with edit if change mind !. For at the moment any list is use less as would be seen as one request from one user !.
Walter
|
| hodali |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 20:33:07
Peter,
Why doesn't the programming team use a vitual machine such as Vitualbox or Vmware to test Easy-PC ?
You can install all Windows versions and you can make a backup of the images, so that you always have a fresh installed windows. You will discover most bugs !
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Johnson
quote:
Originally posted by edrees
There were not a lot of new features that Users had requested incorporated into V15. Bugs from V14 were still unresolved, and still appear to be unresolved in V16. No.1 please debug your existing product first, ensuring stability without adding new un-requested features into Major updates. Previous major updates have also required patches within days of release. "...over 25 significant new developments delivering the best value in a new version of Easy-PC", ....what are you guys smoking?
Please don't get me wrong, I believe that EasyPC (shame about the name) is a good product, and its Users present good, valuable feedback to the developers in a hope to make it an even better product. It's a shame that the next link in the chain doesn't seem to exist.
Problems with new releases aren't limited to Easy-PC. In fact, 'dot zero' bugs are a feature of most major software releases. It's not necessarily a lack of testing, either. Granted, even the best of testers will have blind spots, so some bugs will always be missed, but what's becoming far more prevalent is machine specific bugs. Windows is now so complex, and the range of interacting applications so broad, that it's becoming increasingly difficult to test any release adequately.
V16 is a case in point in that all trial installations worked perfectly, but once shipped, a significant minority of users are finding that critical registry entries aren't being written by the installer. The problem is compounded in that the problem isn't showing up on any test machines (or it would have been spotted before release), so it becomes next to impossible to profile and fix. That's pure bad luck, not a lack of responsibility.
This is becoming an ever increasing problem with supporting the program. How do you fix (or even investigate) a bug reported by a user that isn't reproducible? It's certainly real for the end user, but unless it can be repeated in controlled conditions, it can't be found without a huge slice of luck. Even so, the resources required for every bug like this probably exceeds those required for every ten or more conventionally reproducxible bugs.
Some like this we have managed to isolate to conflicts. Some have been tracked down to bugs in the operating system. Some are due to faulty designs or corrupt libraries. In a lucky few cases we have found problems with the code, but there remain a substantial number of bug reports which simply can't be effectively investigated, either because they're apparently totally random, or because they only ever happen on the user's machine. If the installation has no anomalies, where do you go next?
We've looked at introducing tracking code, but in order to be useful, it would use so many resources that the impact on program speed would become a major issue.
In short, we're not neglecting bugs. We're fixing as many as we can, and attempting to investigate those that are more elusive. Ultimately however, there are some which realistically cannot be resolved within the resources available. They are the 'cold cases' which are re-opened as and when more information comes to light and makes progress more likely. If you happen to be a user with one of these bugs, of course it's going to look as if you're being ignored, but there is a very real limit to how much can be done remotely, regardless of the resources available.
I am NOT making excuses. These are very real difficulties we face in resolving problems, and personally, I am continually amazed at how many of these the programming team DO manage to find and resolve.
|
| edrees |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 17:54:07
Our messages cross!
quote:
but there remain a substantial number of bug reports which simply can't be effectively investigated, either because they're apparently totally random, or because they only ever happen on the user's machine. If the installation has no anomalies, where do you go next?
I have two examples in V15.0.7. The first, a repeatable bug where I always get an unrecoverable error and another where the "Intelligent Gerber Importer only modifies the property on one pad only when the D codes are manually inputted. Neither bugs are elusive or random, and to the best of my knowledge no action has been taken to investigate them.
|
| edrees |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 17:37:05
Hi Peter. Many of us appreciate your personal help, and I agree with you that not many of us requested this G-Code feature.
However, what many of us wanted in listed in Iain's topic,-
http://www.numberone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=670
Your developers have had sufficient time to read through this where relatively simple things like BOM collation and the so called "Intelligent" Gerber import could be de-bugged and dramatically improved along with other EasyPC existing features. We do not need these annual "exciting new features" that your developers think we need. EasyPC is good, and could be so much better if your developers followed our requests instead.
There was not a lot new in V15 that got me excited. There's not a lot in V16 either. That's 2 major updates released with very few customer feedback features implemented.
|
| Peter Johnson |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 17:22:44
quote:
Originally posted by edrees
There were not a lot of new features that Users had requested incorporated into V15. Bugs from V14 were still unresolved, and still appear to be unresolved in V16. No.1 please debug your existing product first, ensuring stability without adding new un-requested features into Major updates. Previous major updates have also required patches within days of release. "...over 25 significant new developments delivering the best value in a new version of Easy-PC", ....what are you guys smoking?
Please don't get me wrong, I believe that EasyPC (shame about the name) is a good product, and its Users present good, valuable feedback to the developers in a hope to make it an even better product. It's a shame that the next link in the chain doesn't seem to exist.
Problems with new releases aren't limited to Easy-PC. In fact, 'dot zero' bugs are a feature of most major software releases. It's not necessarily a lack of testing, either. Granted, even the best of testers will have blind spots, so some bugs will always be missed, but what's becoming far more prevalent is machine specific bugs. Windows is now so complex, and the range of interacting applications so broad, that it's becoming increasingly difficult to test any release adequately.
V16 is a case in point in that all trial installations worked perfectly, but once shipped, a significant minority of users are finding that critical registry entries aren't being written by the installer. The problem is compounded in that the problem isn't showing up on any test machines (or it would have been spotted before release), so it becomes next to impossible to profile and fix. That's pure bad luck, not a lack of responsibility.
This is becoming an ever increasing problem with supporting the program. How do you fix (or even investigate) a bug reported by a user that isn't reproducible? It's certainly real for the end user, but unless it can be repeated in controlled conditions, it can't be found without a huge slice of luck. Even so, the resources required for every bug like this probably exceeds those required for every ten or more conventionally reproducxible bugs.
Some like this we have managed to isolate to conflicts. Some have been tracked down to bugs in the operating system. Some are due to faulty designs or corrupt libraries. In a lucky few cases we have found problems with the code, but there remain a substantial number of bug reports which simply can't be effectively investigated, either because they're apparently totally random, or because they only ever happen on the user's machine. If the installation has no anomalies, where do you go next?
We've looked at introducing tracking code, but in order to be useful, it would use so many resources that the impact on program speed would become a major issue.
In short, we're not neglecting bugs. We're fixing as many as we can, and attempting to investigate those that are more elusive. Ultimately however, there are some which realistically cannot be resolved within the resources available. They are the 'cold cases' which are re-opened as and when more information comes to light and makes progress more likely. If you happen to be a user with one of these bugs, of course it's going to look as if you're being ignored, but there is a very real limit to how much can be done remotely, regardless of the resources available.
I am NOT making excuses. These are very real difficulties we face in resolving problems, and personally, I am continually amazed at how many of these the programming team DO manage to find and resolve. |
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