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tswelectronics
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 13:24:49
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I just got an email about TI doing PCB layout for their WEBENCH designs. Design Spark is supported as an output option but not EasyPC.
Is there going to be a file conversion programme to enable EasyPC users to take advantage of all the DesignSpark support coming through?
Trev |
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no1assist
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 13:58:07
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There are no plans for EasyPC to be involved with WEBENCH.
Steve |
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tswelectronics
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 14:01:37
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| Well my point being that Design Spark must have a very similar file format structure to EasyPC. Are there no plans for file support in EasyPC to enable us paid users to get some benefit from the free version DesignSpark |
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edrees
United Kingdom
779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 14:03:51
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I though that there wouldn't be, -licensing agreements and all that stuff!
Subscription paying EasyPC Users are merely beta testers for future updates to RS's DesignSpark. |
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Benno
Netherlands
79 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 20:51:08
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You are spot on Ed.
Very sad they don't even support an import option for designspark files en libs into EPC. |
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tswelectronics
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 10:10:34
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Can NumberOne clarify if they will be commenting further on this topic? Can they clarify on DesignSpark file support. If there are no plans for it can they explain why please.
As we all know NumberOne read these posts please provide a response so we all know where we stand rather than giving people time to create conspiracy theories that may or may not be true.
Thanks
Trev
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rvpilot
United Kingdom
51 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 12:44:31
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It does seem a bit self destructive if users start on the free DesignSpark, then are tempted to uses a more feature rich product such as Easy-PC but are hit by the first basic obstacle that any existing designs or libraries can't be imported at the project level !!
Either RS have paid a fortune to NumberOne for a proprietory file structure or NumberOne have not thought it through and have shafted themselves.
The lack of import would put me off straight away.
NumberOne and Easy-PC = Bullet hole in Foot,
Competition = Potential New customer !
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no1assist
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 14:46:06
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DesignSpark is a product marketed by RS with its own commercial considerations and capabilities, EasyPC is a comprehensive package marketed by WestDev under its own commercial conditions. Any link to other systems will be governed by the respective commercial conditions and Non-Disclosure Agreements.
DesignSpark is a PCB design tool that addresses a different market need and which has a basic support and update policy. Easy-PC is being actively developed as demonstrated by the release of Version 18 with over 25 new features. There is a strong and healthy user base who receive a high quality of service in both ‘manned’ support and fast problem fixes.
Steve |
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edrees
United Kingdom
779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 19:11:33
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| Steve, I'm not sure that the release of V18 is an exemplary instance of "active development". "over 25 new features" ? And nearly as many bugs, many still remaining a month after release. |
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Iain Wilkie
United Kingdom
1015 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 10:28:14
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Contrary to Ed's comments. I have just completed an intricate 4 layer layout using V18 and found it to perfectly acceptable. True there were a few initial bugs, but to be fair to No1 these were put right at the drop of hat...... a situation that cannot be said for other very expensive packages used by others I have spoken to.
The new features that I found most useful were the BOM composer, the net names showing on the tracks is fantastic, and the changes to the copper pour setup.
However I too find it annoying that we as paying customers cannot import/export to other packages that are from the same stable. Not so much as Designspark as in my opinion it's a toy, but more from the fact that if I bought Pulsonix I would not be able to export to EasyPC. But again having said that I can understand licensing agreements that can prevent this, like many other products in the world.
To me first and foremost from a professional point of view it's the support that counteracts most of the negatives, I earn my living using this product, if it was not up to scratch, I would certainly be using something else.
Iain |
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edrees
United Kingdom
779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 12:15:25
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Iain, a major feature of V18 was the BOM composer. BOM compilation has been a proverbial pain since day one. Now BOM composer was been introduced, full of bugs and still has issues now. It never even had a CSV export option originally, so very short sighted of the Developers. The CSV export feature of BOM Composer still doesn't work on my PC having just been introduced/fixed in V18.01, and yes, Support are aware of my findings.
Another "major feature", the schematic auto fill of components was full of bugs and obviously hadn't even been tested by the Developers before release.
True, 99.9% of the "business end" of the actual programme still worked OK, but the experiences I experienced at the launch of V18 gave me a very poor impression.
Please don't get me wrong, I want EPC to thrive, but I fear that West Dev seem intent on following a path leading to self destruction.
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tswelectronics
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 12:18:22
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I appreciate Number One's response.
I am not quite sure what they were trying to say in relation to answering my questions.
I am glad EasyPC and DesignSpark are different products in one sense as I believe I am using a professional package and I pay for that.
In providing support for other packages I would say the precedent has already been set in providing support to import eagle libraries and files. So at some point NumberOne did actually decide it was a good idea to provide such support for a hobby/competitors package. I would have thought providing support for DesignSpark would benefit both EasyPC and DesignSpark.
So it would be nice if we could get an answer on why NumberOne feels its not a good option to provide support. It must be such an easy option with the in-house knowledge of both packages. What possible reason is there for not doing it?
If you are saying its down to legal constraints then are these on RS's side? I would like to talk with RS and see what can be done to enable this type of support in the future. I just want to find a way to get this support in. With EasyPC providing support for Eagle already its surely going to make sense. If enough people ask for it then surely it must fit in the upgrade path as well....
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Iain Wilkie
United Kingdom
1015 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 14:56:41
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Ed, I agree the BOM composer had couple of problems, however I find it a fantastic addition to the product as I always struggled with the other report generator. However all fixed as far as I can see in V18.0.1.
I know we are at opposing ends of an argument here, however my point is .... I am on a job, I find a bug, I report a bug direct, I usually get a fix within a hour or so .... I now get on with the job. I don't care about bugs, I understand how the develop, all I want is I direct link to the developers to get them sorted. Numberone have also helped with other problems in the past, and even one I remember on a Friday right up to about 7pm. This level of support is head and shoulders above other products with extortionate price tags compared to EasyPC.
Please note I have no obligations to Numberone, my comments are purely to support what I think is an excellent product but seems to to get an undeserved slagging.
Iain |
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edrees
United Kingdom
779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 15:58:15
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Iain,
We're not on opposing sides. We both think EPC is an excellent product and we both agree that their technical support is first class. We both have invested a lot of effort in this Product and we both want it to thrive for many more years to come (at least until I retire!).
My comments/criticism revolve around insufficient testing of updates, their reluctance to be more "open sourced" and the way the powers to be are (in my opinion) shooting themselves in the foot with DesignSpark<=> EPC incompatibility. They need such superb tech support when the Developers release such untested code such as in the V18 release. That was nearly enough for me to reconsider my allegiance.
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Iain Wilkie
United Kingdom
1015 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 16:21:57
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The level of bugs in V18 I found was acceptable. They got fixed in an acceptable time.
Just in the same way you check and check and check again a new pcb design and layout, you have to press the button and go for it, however nine times out of ten, there is nearly something that's missed .... A wrong hole size, an incorrect connection on the schematic, a fouling component on the layout etc, etc, so you put it right and go for spin 2.
To perfectly honest, after now completing a major layout using V18, it's caused me no major issues and I am really happy with its operation.
I am prepared to be a realist rather than an idealist.
Iain |
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tswelectronics
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 12:20:05
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TI sent me another email regarding designing inductive sensing. Guess what...you can do all the calculations through WEBENCH and export it to Design Spark PCB - that free tool for hobby folk. But it cant export it to EasyPC - that package for professionals.
http://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/analogwire/archive/2014/09/17/inductive-sensing-five-minute-sensor-coil-design.aspx?DCMP=awire_20140917_en
Can Number One Systems tell me who's call it is to not provide support for DesignSpark file formats please? I would really appreciate a bit more feedback on this topic because this is a very important issue. The idea of not being able to use WEBENCH whilst DesignSpark can is really frustrating. I mean I wouldnt mind if it was a paid plugin.
Hope to get some feedback on this.
Trev |
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Iain Wilkie
United Kingdom
1015 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2014 : 08:53:05
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Trevor,
You could if course export to Eagle and then import that into EasyPC.
Iain |
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tswelectronics
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2014 : 10:19:01
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Thanks, Iain. It is a pretty obvious solution that I missed probably because I am wound up by the fact Number One do not really want to talk about this subject apart from some standard response.
Thanks again.
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Iain Wilkie
United Kingdom
1015 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2014 : 16:05:15
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Trev,
All I know is some contractural/licensing restriction that prevents this happening.
Iain |
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johnj
United Kingdom
1 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 11:01:20
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Hi,
Does anybody have an interest Design Spark Mechanical ?
I have been using it a while and find it to be a really superb, powerful (and free !) tool to help get tricky 3D PCB / Front Panel layout / Enclosure layout / packaging issues properly sorted before going to manufacture. It definitely saves me time and money.
Unfortunately, I have to independently re-create the PCB in DSM because the EPC IDF file can't be read by DSM. EPC TechSupp have advised there is a fix required, but my £75 option purchase won't push it to the top of the list.
So I'm hoping there may be other users who would also find this useful.
John
If of interest : DSM which is based on SpaceClaim, is free from RS. RS seem to be encouraging their suppliers to provide DSM component models. There are loads of online tutorials, videos etc. to get you going. No, I'm not on commission :)
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Peter Johnson
United Kingdom
498 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 10:26:43
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I'm rather late stepping into this, for which I apologise. Any opinions expressed are very much my own and not official company statements.
RS are a huge company, with a lot of clout. They must be major customers of TI, so they have the commercial pull to get Design Spark support when they want it. Since Westdev are a software company, TI don't have the same incentive to support Easy-PC, which probably explains the lack of WEBENCH support. However, you can still get the libraries into Easy-PC, as one of the formats supported is Eagle - possibly because it's Farnell's equivalent to Design Spark.
You'll need to install one of the free copies of Eagle to do it, but you CAN convert Eagle libraries to Easy-PC - full details are in the Easy-PC help files under 'Eagle'. Unfortunately we can't do it for you because of copyright restrictions.
I have no knowledge of any contract between RS and Westdev, which means I am ignorant of the details, but also not bound by any confidentiality agreement which may or may not exist - I simply don't know, but simply looking at the current situation, it would seem likely that the different file format would be an imposed requirement. Why else got to the extra effort to make the programs incompatible? RS must have put a lot of resources into creating libraries in support of their catalogue, so perhaps they're just protecting that investment. On the support desk I hear your frustration all the time, but I really don't know what has to change before format translation becomes a reality.
Regarding V18 bugs, we did have a glitch with the first upload of V18.0.3, so if you've patched to that, and experience any forward design change anomalies, please download a fresh patch and apply it. That should resolve them.
The problem was caused by a bug fix for a minor problem, which was tested, but it was not appreciated at the time that the same module formed part of the forward changes function, and the fix for the minor problem introduced a more serious one elsewhere. It was sorted out VERY rapidly as soon as we were aware of it, but obviously a number of users will already have the faulty patch.
Regarding the component fill function, the option detects the largest single closed shape in the symbol, and fills that. There have been some minor problems caused by unanticipated structures which have now been resolved, but to make the function work on 100% of components requires a lot of extra work handling special cases, so this will take time. Some can be anticipated, but often, it's not until an example surfaces that it can be addressed, simply because so many situations are too oddball to be predicted. |
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tswelectronics
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 11:28:29
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Thank you Peter for your response, it is appreciated. Sometimes just stating such things can stop conspiracy theories from running wild. Protecting the libraries RS want to create does make complete sense from their perspective. This really does take things out of the hands of Number One Systems.
A concern I have is if DesignSpark is going to become a better product than EasyPC. I do not know how many features are different between the two packages.
I am not sure but there are still the odd net missing from designs. I check a schematic and the connections are made. I switch to the PCB and the net is not present. I show all nets, I move the component to just update nets and still some nets do not show. Integrity checks show the connection is there but its just not displayed so I think there is something odd still going on with EasyPC but I do not know if its to do with V18 or the latest patch. I think I have experienced this pre 18.0.3.
On a positive note, the net names being displayed in the tracks and pads on the PCB layout is fantastic. Such a nice feature.
Thanks again for your response.
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hodali
Germany
148 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 11:48:11
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If Number One System provides technical information about the format which is used in the Easy-PC library, TI and other companies will support Easy-PC. All companies want to sell their products to all users (to Number One customers as well). So it is Number One's fault.
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Edited by - hodali on 07 Nov 2014 11:58:14 |
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tswelectronics
United Kingdom
88 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 13:50:33
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I do not think Number One Systems are in a position to 'irritate' RS by doing such things. It is obviously a nice deal for Number One so I can appreciate their hands may be tied over what they can and can not do. I had not considered this aspect of it before and was thinking that Number One were in more control of the situation than they actually are. I think they are the client of RS and so have to ensure the client stays happy.
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edrees
United Kingdom
779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 14:25:43
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My main worry is that the priority for RS (obviously being a "nice deal") will eventually "overtake" us subscription paying Customers.
I think it's only a matter of time before RS will want the "full package" and they probably have sufficient leverage to do it. Then we no longer have to pay our Subscriptions to No1, - unless we get fed up with all the RS adverts (allegedly). |
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DavidM
United Kingdom
458 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 14:44:05
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There are indeed two separate companies involved here, each with their own business needs and product directions. Okay, so the product requirements overlap, but they are different. RS are using DesignSpark PCB as one of the elements of building an 'electronics design community', and as part of this have included in the application some features (ModelSource library data and BOM Quote pricing for example) developed to fit within that plan. To look at it simplistically, the obvious end result for RS is to increase sales of components, as that is their core business.
However, what I can say is that it is certainly our (WestDev's) intention that Easy-PC will (despite its name!) always be a more powerful PCB design product than DesignSpark PCB. Easy-PC is an important part of our business, and we are keen to see it continue to flourish.
David. |
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Iain Wilkie
United Kingdom
1015 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 15:07:37
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I have tried Designspark and can confirm that it's absolute rubbish compared to EasyPC.
Iain |
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hodali
Germany
148 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 20:07:47
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@Iain Wilkie: I disagree. Designspark and Easy-PC are the same package. Easy-PC has additional features which are omited in Designspark. Some features are included in Designspark for free. For example IDF output, all component libraries and DXF output. Easy-PC users have to pay for these packages. Designspark has all basic functions to create schematics and layouts. I have to mention that you cannot create a high speed PCB layout with both products.
I bought Easy-PC with all additional packages and it was more expensive than Eagle. As you know Eagle is better than Easy-PC now. I made the wrong decision. My last update was Easy-PC 17 and I do not buy updates anymore.
By the way you can add new footprints to Easy-PC by importing dxf files. So you can transfer data from Designspark to Easy-PC
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Edited by - hodali on 07 Nov 2014 20:50:42 |
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Iain Wilkie
United Kingdom
1015 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 20:47:56
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@hodali. I know Designspark is a subset of EasyPc, but because it has only the basic features it is hopeless from a professional point of view. That's why I said it was rubbish. I tried Eagle but it didn't gel with me. I find easypc an excellent package and have used it for complex high speed designs up to 12 layers.
Basically it works for me, you pay your money and you take your choice.
I think we have all probably bought software that we have found doesn't do things the way we wanted, but you simply need to learn from it and move on. If I were you I would simply bite the bullet and move to Eagle as your preferred choise.
Iain |
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hodali
Germany
148 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 21:08:48
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| @Iain Wilkie: One day you will move to another product as well. Easy-Pc always has limited features because WestDev wants you to buy Pulsonix. |
Edited by - hodali on 07 Nov 2014 21:09:33 |
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Iain Wilkie
United Kingdom
1015 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 22:28:27
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I have already looked at Pulsonix but there is another reason for me not to go that way or I would. Problem is a lot of my clients use EasyPc. They use this to edit and make minor adjustments to layouts that I have already done so they do not need to return to me for this service. EasyPc is affordable to them. Pulsonix does not export to EasyPc so if I went the Pulsinox route, they also need to, but the extra cost doesn't fit. To date there is nothing that Pulsonix does that EasyPc cannot .... Albeit perhaps not so elegant. The only plus that Pulsonix has is its import facility from other packages.
Iaon |
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Topic |
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DesignSpark file support