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Peter Johnson
United Kingdom
498 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Dec 2017 : 11:40:22
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Number One Systems has had a report of an Easy-PC installation behaving as the title. subsequent investigation showed that the issue related to the design and other files being stored on a network attached storage (NAT) drive which used an embedded Syntronics operating system. The presentation of the problem is rather bizarre, but other applications (including Office) can also be affected by the issue.
If you use such a drive, a web search for the issues can provide a wealth of detail. |
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AndyB
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 22:27:40
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| I think you'll find that saving to "Onedrive" also can act up.. |
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Peter Johnson
United Kingdom
498 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2018 : 11:34:11
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There's a general issue here not relating to network storage. On the 'General tab under [Settings], [Preferences] is an option to automatically create backups when saving. These are labelled as backups of the original design. Clearly, when saving, the highest numbered backup has to be discarded, then lower ones numbered to the next higher to leave a clear slot for the new original. This takes time, so as a precaution, the design is first saved to a temporary file, which is eventually renamed to the design name.
Unfortunately, automatic backup systems, like OneDrive and Dropbox will start to copy the temporary file, locking it, so the final rename fails and the file is apparently lost. When this was first reported, the location of the temporary file was changed to the Windows temporary file area to minimise the risk, but it does sti9ll happen occasionally. |
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mjohnm
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 07:11:33
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So why does EasyPC have to crash out/abend instead of trapping the error? Come on gentlepeople, this issue has been around a very long time and is long overdue for a fix. I am an amateur programmer and I know how to recover gracefully when a file is unexpectedly unavailable. Every other program I have behaves properly in this regard. The persistence of this issue should be a major embarrassment for Number One.
mJm |
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Peter Johnson
United Kingdom
498 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 10:22:33
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| It's a fair comment - apart from one minor detail. If the program crashes at this point, it's not when it's under the program's control. The active thread is the Windows file manger, over which we have no control once it's been initialised for the task. The usual outcome of this scenario is that the design apparently fails to save and vanishes from storage - because the original's been renamed, but the temporary file has not (because it's locked). |
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mjohnm
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 21:05:40
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Well, so, you understand what the problem is. Instead of using the method you are using now to copy files why not use a method used by all those hundreds of other programs out there that do not have this problem? The wheel has already been invented in this regard, so why invent a wheel that is square? I am sorry to be rude about this but the problem has been a thorn in my side for years.
mJm |
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Peter Johnson
United Kingdom
498 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 09:25:27
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The initial save to a temporary file is done as a precaution so that the file contents are preserved. That's good practice. The issue here is that other software running on a user's machine is outside our control, so it makes sense to warn users when there are known interactions. Regarding your comment as to why the saving isn't done the same way as other programs, it's actually rare for programs to offer the option to preserve backups from previous saves. There have been some minor but significant changes in the way the algorithm works which have significantly reduced the chances of inadvertent file locking, but in an open ended system like Windows, it's impossible to cater for every eventuality, especially when Easy-PC (like most applications) is running over potentially conflicting software (like auto backup, drivers, anti-virus and firewall utilities).
If you wish to discuss this further, please do so by email rather than extending this thread. |
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mjohnm
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 18:57:19
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Peter: Thanks for the extra information about why it occurs. However, again, other programs save temporary copies without the side effect of crashing. If I have a choice between a bullet-proof backup file creation system, and a system that does not crash potentially trashing hours of work, which do you think I would choose?
In effect Number One is choosing to provide unstable software to their customers running SugarSync, DropBox, GoogleDrive and many other similar really, really useful apps. Please note that I use all three of those and no other program has a problem with them. Note that shutting them down improves but does not fix EasyPC's stability.
I'm getting really tired of dealing with this issue. It seems it is a known and understood issue which Number One chooses to do NOTHING about it. STOP blaming the PC environment and START blaming the crap methods you are using.
I have used EasyPC since its DOS versions and I am outraged to find nothing is being done about an issue which I now find out is both known and understood. Time to transition to Eagle.
mJm |
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shadders
United Kingdom
224 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 21:14:56
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Hi,
A possible solution is to use Easy-PC in a VM that does not have dropbox etc installed. Then any requirements to backup can be done at the last minute by copying the files manually.
I use VirtualBox - it is great. If you need another Windows licence - check out :
https://www.scdkey.com/
The licences are very cheap for OEM builds - i currently have a Windows 8.1 Pro - £14.63  .
For Eagle - they do not offer perpetual licences - it is subscription only. I would check their terms and conditions - they my have some aspects which you will not like.
Of course, if Easy-PC was on Linux, then there would no such issue.... 
Regards,
Shadders. |
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mjohnm
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 16:47:17
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A VM would work? But why do I need a VM just to evade a known bug in EasyPC? All my other many apps coexist with DropBox and is ilk just fine. Isn't the more straightforward approach for NumberOne to recognize that they have a known bug WHICH SHOULD BE FIXED? It seems they lack some intellectual integrity in this issue. It is also very ironic. The problem is associated with a robust method for keeping running backups - for the purpose of mitigating the effect of crashes. But this features causes more crashes than it helps with!
As for Eagle, what you say is true. However, NumberOne's generates its revenue stream by coming out with frequent upgrades whose annual cost is not si different from Eagle's annual license. But the updates include rarely needed new features and a new set of bugs that are NEVER NEEDED. (I have posted elsewhere some numb nut bugs I encountered in just a couple of days using 21.0.3.) Which app makes the better use of my money?
mJm |
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shadders
United Kingdom
224 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 16:59:36
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Hi,
I know it is not perfect, but it is a temporary solution.
I checked the web, and you can sync specific folders only. So, if the backup file is in a folder that is not set to sync, then this issue will not occur ?
I located this here :
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/onedrive/forum/odwork-odsearch-sdwin10/cant-stop-one-drive-from-syncing-all-of-my-files/d7dd636b-c38a-4fa8-8ed3-56a1e9e5ee31
Not sure if this will solve your problem ?
1. Stop OneDrive from syncing the folder of the backups,
2. Set Easy-Pc to the folder for the backups.
Text of the issue as per P Johson states it is the locking of the temporary file - if they are in the folder that is not synced - then it should not be locked ?
I don't use a backup facility - so no issue for me.
Regards,
Shadders. |
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mjohnm
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 18:21:19
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I don't use OneDrive; I use SugarSync, DropBox and Google Drive (all three on one machine). If I shut them all down, EasyPC crashes are somewhat less frequent but STILL OCCUR. I use SugarSync and the others to successful backup and sync ALL my other apps. Why should I have to dispense with them *only* for EasyPC?
I'm still looking for a commitment to FIX the bug, not AVOID it.
I am putting this on the public forum in the attempt to shame NumberOne into fixing this long standing issue. I have been dealing with for the last several years.
mJm
mJm |
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Peter Johnson
United Kingdom
498 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 09:46:20
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Perhaps I haven't made it sufficiently clear. The save issue currently being discussed DOES NOT trigger crashes. It triggers apparent file loss.
For the record, the majority of random crashes do not leave an audit trail for the crash. The mere fact that this happens when Windows includes code to produce crash reports implies that the crash is NOT being triggered by Easy-PC, but by a Windows instability. This is further borne out by the occasions when a crash report IS available. By far the greatest number of reports of a fault module refer to ntdll.dll - the core Windows module, or, somewhat less frequently, a Windows stack error.
We are aware that Easy-PC does seem to suffer from these failures more often than other software, and have put a huge amount of resources into trying to track down why this should be. Apart from Easy-PC relying very heavily on Windows APIs there's no obvious reason for this. The failures seem to be truly random in most instances. Where they are repeatable, we put a lot of effort into trying to pinpoint the cause, but even then, it can be extremely difficult to isolate.
If as a user community, anyone can offer any concrete reasons as to why this happens (as opposed to speculation), we really do want to know how this situation can be improved. We are not ignoring this problem, nor neglecting responsibilities, but there are only so many avenues that can be explored. Once these are exhausted, what further can be done? |
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shadders
United Kingdom
224 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 11:43:56
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Hi,
Not had any crashes of the program, although, i do use infrequently, but when i do use, i use for long periods.
I have only every used on Windows 7 and Windows 8.1.
Can mjohnm provide the OS that he is using ?. Thanks ?
Maybe others can spot if there are issues with a specific Windows version.
I have had my PC crash (not running Easy-PC) when i am not using it - seemed to be an audio driver. In any case - there is usually a dump file that can be examined.
Obtaining the tool to examine the core dump file is difficult - but there are online versions provided by non-Microsoft websites.
Regards,
Shadders. |
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edrees
United Kingdom
779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 14:26:17
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Windows 7 Pro 64, Easy PC Ver. 21.0.3. Repeatable crash.
In PCB Editor, I have allocated the keyboard shortcut "T" to "pull track tight". Whilst adding a new track, if I (accidentally) press "T "instead of "F" (to flip the track) the program (unrecoverably) crashes.
Nothing to do with saving temporary files or online backup systems. Other than above, EasyPC appears to be quite stable on my system.
Hope this helps!
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shadders
United Kingdom
224 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 16:19:59
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Hi,
To add, the following may be helpful :
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb787181(v=vs.85).aspx
The above is for :
"Starting with Windows Server 2008 and Windows Vista with Service Pack 1 (SP1), Windows Error Reporting (WER) can be configured so that full user-mode dumps are collected and stored locally after a user-mode application crashes."
So, this may help debug the issue.
Regards,
Shadders. |
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Topic |
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Program crashes unless using 'Run as Administrator